Repeat of an Error by Mirza Quadiani
Preface
Many writers have written articles and some have written books on the claims and writings of Mirza Ghulam-e- Ahmed of Quadian. A study of the material written on Mirza’s claims and writings highlights a trend followed by most of the writers adopting a simpler and easier approach by highlighting outrageous statements made by Mirza and cramping different claims in an article or a book.
For this series of Articles we are going to use the name Mirza Quadiani for him. His name really means “servant of Ahmed” or “slave of Ahmed” to be more accurate. This distinction is important to make from the outset. Mirza Quadiani deliberately and deceptively used “Ahmed” to make outrageous claims that his personage was prophesised in Bible and he had been mentioned in Quran.
Our endeavour is to write series of articles highlighting different claims and then presenting to the readers in depth and comprehensive insight into writings and personality of Mirza Quadiani.
Mirza made various claims in his books then withdrew some of his claims when he faced with mounting criticism and hostility from his opponents in particular and from Muslims of his era in general. But being a deceptive person, he always tried to twist his own writings to justify his outrageous and blasphemous claims. At times he would maintain a very hostile posture towards his opponents, use vulgar down right provocative, insulting language against his opponents and Muslims.
Mirza made many claims ranging from Reviver of Islam, Promised Messiah of every religion, Mehdi, second coming of Jesus AS, second advent of Prophet Muhammad SAW, Prophethood of various degrees and descriptions and even divinity.
In this article we will concentrate on his claims of Prophethood in a narrow meaning of Sadiq. When faced with mounting criticism, Mirza Quadiani wrote a book “Removal of a misunderstanding”. This article will mainly explore explanations Mirza Quadiani provided in this book together with background and meaning of the condition he set up for the Prophethood after Prophet Muhammad SAW.
Condition for Prophethood set by Mirza Quadiani
In this book, Mirza Quadiani stated Verse 33:40 (RK18-59 P3)
Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets; and Allah is ever Aware of all things.
Mirza also quoted Hadith from Bukhari Kitabul fada’il “La Nabi Badi” there is no prophet after me.
Mirza wrote; (RK18-59 P3)
This verse contains a prophecy of which our opponents do not have the least idea. In this prophecy God Almighty says that, after the Holy Prophet the door of prophecies has been closed till the Day of Judgement and it is no longer possible for a Hindu, a Jew, a Christian or nominal Muslims to assume the title of Prophet and that all the doors leading to prophethood have been closed except the door of Sirat-e-Siddiqi i.e. losing oneself in the Holy Prophet.
Mirza further wrote; (RK18-59 P4)
Thus he who comes to God through this door is clad, by way of Zill in the same mantle of Prophethood which is the mantle of the Prophethood of Muhammad SAW. As such, his being a Prophet is not a matter for jealously, for he does not derive his status from himself but from the fountain of the Holy Prophet SAW; and, that too, not for his own glory but for the glory and majesty of the Holy Prophet SAW. For this reason, in heaven he is named Muhammad SAW and Ahmed SAW. Thus the Prophethood of Muhammad SAW in the final analysis returns to Muhammad SAW, albeit by way of Buruz and to no one else
Deception by Quadiani Jamat
Before we examine claims of Mirza Quadiani, it is important to point to a deliberate deception by the publisher of translation for this book. On the page 4 we find following foot note 9
Complete devotion to the Holy Prophet SAW, such as was shown by Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddiq (Publisher).
Fact remains, Mirza Quadiani didn’t mention Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddiq RA in his original book therefore it is curious why publisher decided to add this note. There is a huge problem for the Quadiani Jamat for the qualifications for Prophethood outlined by Mirza. We do not find any evidence that such claim was ever made by Hadrat Abu Bakr Siddiq RA or by any other Sahaba’s of the Prophet SAW. Hadrat Abu Bakr was called Siddiq and not Sadiq; this is an important distinction to make for further analysis of Mirza’s claim in this book.
Quadiani Jamat has shown their deception even in the translation of the name of this book, the title should be “Removal of an Error” rather then “Removal of a misunderstanding”.
Concept of Sadiq or tZadik
It is imperative to explore concept of Sadiq, after all this is the only qualification to become a Prophet according to Mirza Quadiani.
Quadianis especially Lahoris boast that Dr. Allama Iqbal was sympathetic to Quadianiat and he was impressed with literary merits of Mirza’s work. Some Quadianis make highly dubious claims that he actually accepted Mirza and was a Quadiani. We always thought that knowing the intelligence and thinking genius of Dr. Iqbal it is almost nigh impossible for him to fall prey to someone as unscrupulous as Mirza who has no command of either the language or the subject matter, nor the works he produced could be classed as a literary masterpieces. A deeper study of Mirza Quadiani’s work reveal this fact to any intelligent and knowledgeable person that Mirza was either completely unaware of Islamic teachings and specially Quranic teachings or that he purposefully wrote those books to mislead and spread white lies against Quran and other Islamic teachings and concepts.
Dr. Iqbal wrote on finality of Prophethood
This idea of Finality is perhaps the most original idea in the cultural history of mankind: its true significance can be understood only by those who carefully study the history of pre-Islamic Magian culture in Western and Middle Asia. The concept of Magian culture, according to modern research, includes cultures associated with Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Jewish Christianity, Chaldean and Sabean religion. To these creed-communities the idea of the continuity of prophethood was essential, and consequently they lived in a state of constant expectation. It is probable that the Magian man psychologically enjoyed this state of expectation. The modern man is spiritually far more emancipated than the Magian man. The result of the Magian attitude was the disintegration of old communities and the constant formation of new ones by all sorts of religious adventurers.
Dr. Iqbal had a full understanding of personality of Mirza and his motives, purpose, theological and religious forces behind Mirza’s different claims, as we expected from a genius and student of Islamic history, a world renewed philosopher of 20th century Muslim world.
On the concept of tZadik in Hebrew or Sadiq in Arabic Dr. Iqbal wrote following regarding Quadiani’s believes and writings of Mirza;
Its idea of a jealous God with an inexhaustible store of earthquakes and plagues for its opponents; its conception of the prophet as a soothsayer; its idea of the continuity of the spirit of messiah, are so absolutely Jewish that the movement can easily be regarded as a return to early Judaism.
Dr. Iqbal is spot on in his analysis of Quadianis beliefs sprouting from the writings of Mirza. Dr. Iqbal further explains the concept of tZadik or Sadiq and its origin by quoting Baalshem,
It was thought that the spirit of the Messiah descended upon the earth through the prophets and even though a long line of holy men stretching into the present time – the tZaddiks (Sadiq).
Dr. Iqbal put the concept and origin of the idea and concept of tZadik into right prospective. Jamat has tried to put an Islamic twist on this concept by introducing a very misleading footnote to the writings of Mirza. There is absolutely no doubt that Mirza did not mentioned Hadarat Abu Baker Sadiq RA nor did he have anyone else in mind to qualify for a self prescribed formulae for Prophethood. If Mirza intended to give example of H.Abu Bakr Sidiq RA then he would have face the prospect of ridicule from Muslims. Legitimate question would be why Abu Baker was not a Prophet when Mirza could be a prophet.
Concept of tZadik in Jewish religion
Tzadik i.e. righteous one is a title given to those who are considered to be righteous such as spiritual leaders. The root word is Tzadek which means justice or righteousness. True title of a tZadik is applied to one who never sins, but also removed any inclination to sin. Talmud states
A tzadik decrees and the Holy one (blessed be he) fulfils.
We also find some Quadianis quoting regularly that God created human in His own image. This perception is completely un-Islamic and has roots in the Bible (Old Testament) and in Jewish traditions.
The form for the letter Tzadik resembles Alef in Hibrew more than any other letter in that language, according to Jewish traditions as taught in Kabbalah.
The mate of the “Alef” the Master of the Universe i.e. God, is Tzadik “the righteous one” as it is said that the Tzadik is the foundation of the world.
According to Jewish teachings, the letter Tzadik derived from Tzelem, the divine image in which God created man.
Mirza’s failed attempts to introduce Magian ideas into Islamic teachings
Mirza twisted Islamic teachings to introduce ideas such as Buruz, Zill and 2nd advent or idea of re-incarnation. His sole purpose to introduce these ideas was to mislead unsuspecting and simple people who had very basic knowledge of Islam, let alone to deal with complicated or incomprehensible issues discuss by someone as devilishly misleading and crooked as Mirza.
Iqbal wrote;
Heretical movements in Muslim Iran under the pressure of Pre-Islamic Magian ideas invented the words buruz, hulul, zill, to cover this idea of a perpetual reincarnation. It was necessary to invent new expressions for a Magian idea in order to make it less shocking to Muslim conscience. Even the phrase “Promised Messiah” is not a product of Muslim religious consciousness. It is a bastard expression and has its origin in the Pre-Islamic Magian outlook.
Mirza’s Understanding of Quranic teachings and his misleading and dishonest interpretations
1- Recipient of Revelations and duration of Prophethood
Before we examine some of the claims or denial by Mirza from this book, it is important to note that even though He wrote; (RK18-59 P3)
No Prophet new or old can come in the manner in which people seek the decent of Jesus AS in the latter days, while you also believe that he will be a prophet and that he will continue to receive Prophetic revelation for forty years and thus surpass the period of the Holy Prophet’s Prophethood. Such a belief is undoubtedly sinful.
It is quite obvious Mirza was up to his usual tricks to mislead his followers and readers. Fact remains He himself claimed to be a prophet, which is not denied by Quadianis and he also claimed to have allegedly received Prophetic revelation for forty years, to match the period of second coming of Jesus according to some Hadith’s traditions. In his endeavour to stretch this period to forty years to fulfil the traditions he claimed that he started to receive the revelations at the age of 40, Like Prophet SAW and he had been promised by God to live to an age of 80 or near about. This topic may be subject for another article; therefore, we are focusing our attention to the present topic.
In essence he is guilty of the same sinful belief he was accusing others, after all he claimed for himself revelations and 40 years duration for his alleged Prophethood, exceeding period of Prophethood by Prophet SAW.
2 – Claim of being a Rasool and Nabi and Recipient of knowledge of Unseen
Contrary to perception and claims of Lahori Quadianis instead of denying his claim of Prophethood, Mirza effectively has tried to prove his Prophethood in this book, albeit by using his usual deception of Buruz and Zil, concepts as stated above have no basis or rational in Islamic religion and traditions.
Mirza wrote; (RK18-59 P4)
It should be remembered that the literal meaning of Nabi is one who discloses the unseen after having been informed by God. Therefore, the title of Nabi would be justified wherever this connotation would apply. A Nabi has to be a Rasul for if he is not Rasul he cannot be the recipient of knowledge of the unseen as indicated by Al- Jinn 72: 26/27 “ He does not grant anyone ascendancy over His domain of the unseen, except him whom He Chooses as His Messenger”. Now taking this connotation into account, if the appearance of a Nabi is denied, it will tantamount to believing that this umma has been deprived of Divine address and converse, because whosoever discloses matters of the unseen on the basis of Divine knowledge would necessarily be a Nabi within the connotation of the verse “He does not grant ascendancy over His domain of the unseen.
Lahori’s point of view is not based on facts, but rather on false propaganda. Mirza did not deny his prophethood in this book; on the contrary he is trying to prove that he is not only Nabi but also Rasul. If this was not his intention he had no need to emphasise Surah Jin.
It is another matter that Mirza displayed his lack of knowledge of Quran and his scant regard for the Word of Allah by quoting above verses from Surah Jin. Verses 72:26/27 do not imply that Allah disclose to the Prophets knowledge of the unseen. On the contrary these Verses categorically state that no one has the knowledge of the Unseen except Allah SWT.
72:26 He [alone] knows that which is beyond the reach of a created being’s perception and to none does He disclose aught of the mysteries of His Own unfathomable knowledge,
72:27 unless it be to an apostle whom He has been pleased to elect [there for]: and then He sends forth [the forces of heaven] to watch over him in whatever lies open before him and in what is beyond his ken.
Once Quran makes a categorical decree then it’s virtually an announcement of finality on the topic. Here it is clearly stated that none have the knowledge of the unseen except Allah. In the presence of such categorical statement from Quran it is futile to suggest otherwise. This point is further clarified in the subsequent verse;
72:28 so as to make manifest that it is indeed [but] their Sustainer’s messages that these [apostles] deliver: for it is He who encompasses [with His knowledge] all that they have [to say], just as He takes count, one by one, of everything [that exists].
Reason for Allah to appoint Angels over Prophets to manifest that the message is delivered to us through Prophets the way it was intended, vouchsafed. Above verse once again clarify the point made in earlier verses and also reiterated the message of above verses that only Allah has the knowledge of everything which exists in the Universe.
This message that no one else has the knowledge of the Unseen is evident in various Quranic verses.
We find Quran in 5: 109 states that all the Messengers of Allah will pronounce their inability to have any knowledge of Unseen or Hidden things, affirming that only Allah has that knowledge.
In the day when Allah gathereth together the messengers, and saith: What was your response (from mankind)? they say: We have no knowledge. Lo! Thou, only Thou art the Knower of Things Hidden,
6:50 Say (O Muhammad, to the disbelievers): I say not unto you (that) I possess the treasures of Allah, nor that I have knowledge of the Unseen; and I say not unto you: Lo! I am an angel. I follow only that which is inspired in me. Say: Are the blind man and the seer equal? Will ye not then take thought?
This verse state that Prophet SAW to declare that he has no knowledge of the Unseen and he only disclosed to us what was revealed to him by the way of revelations Vouchsafed. Same point made in Surah Al-Jin, Allah appoint Angels to vouchsafe the message delivered through the Prophets, knowledge of the unseen always remain with Allah and Him alone.
This message has been delivered to human through Prophets
6:159 And with Him are the keys of the Invisible. None but He knoweth them. And He knoweth what is in the land and the sea. Not a leaf falleth but He knoweth it, not a grain amid the darkness of the earth, naught of wet or dry but (it is noted) in a clear record.
7:188 Say: For myself I have no power to benefit, nor power to hurt, save that which Allah willeth. Had I knowledge of the Unseen, I should have abundance of wealth, and adversity would not touch me. I am but a warner, and a bearer of good tidings unto folk who believe
Above verse leave no doubt at all in the mind of any reader of Quran that Prophet Muhammad SAW had no knowledge of the Unseen and he was nothing but a warner.
Mirza is nothing but a liar to claim that one of the signs of his Prophethood is that knowledge of the hidden and unseen was disclosed to him by Allah. Mirza claimed he is Buruz and Zil of Prophet Muhammad Saw and his Prophethood is derived from nowhere else but from the fountain of Prophethood of Muhammad SAW, this knowledge of the Unseen couldn’t have been derived from Prophet Muhammad SAW, because Prophet SAW didn’t have that knowledge.
18: 26 Say: Allah is Best Aware how long they tarried. His is the Invisible of the heavens and the earth. How clear of sight is He and keen of hearing! They have no protecting friend beside Him, and He maketh none to share in His Government.
We end this particular topic on above verse, which once again reiterate and consolidate that Allah alone has the knowledge of the Unseen and he discloses or share with no one his command his knowledge in this respect, not even to Prophets.
Prophets have one and one purpose; to relay the message of Allah to the human; passed on to them through divine revelations.
Second heresy Mirza has committed is to state that if appearance of Nabi is denied then this Umma (Muslim) is denied divine address and converse. Forgetting that this Umma is already blessed with the divine address and converse in the shape of Quran and through the person of Prophet Muhammad SAW. This heretic has no respect for Prophet Muhammad SAW and His SAW authority. His claims of Fina-fil-Rasul are empty slogans, which we will examine in more details in future articles.
Fundamental questions remains, how is he a Nabi and Rasul? If we accept his arguments that this Muslim Umma needed another Nabi then why no one appeared for 1300 years and will there be other Nabis in the future. We are already witnessing an avalanche of claimant in Quadianiat due to Mirza’s heretical views.
There is absolutely no doubt that Mirza lied through his teeth in his claims and he only wanted to legitimize his claim to simple village folks by giving them twisted explanations for him to be accepted as Prophet by use of deception.
3 – Mirza’s explanation of Zilli Prophethood from Quran
Mirza compared his Zilli and Buruzi Prophethood with Isa AS, and asserted that Isa AS can not return without breaking the seal of Prophethood but by virtue of Zill Mirza is not breaking the seal of Prophethood. Mirza stated Verses 1:06 and 1:07 (RK18-59 P5)
Show us the straight path, The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.
Mirza used this Dua in Quran for Muslim’s (to pray to Allah to show them the right path) to claim that these Verses are indications and proof that Zilli and Buruzi Nabis would not break the seal of Prophethood. Mirza was master in twisting teaching of Quran to meet his own ends. He has scant regards for the sanctity of the Scripture.
4- Mirza’s character, could he be treated as a Righteous or Sadiq?
Mirza couldn’t be treated as righteous person or Sadiq i.e. truthful person. Because of Mirza’s claim that his prophethood is by virtue of him being Zil or Buruz of Prophet Muhammad SAW, or according to his own incredible claims to be Second Advent of Prophet Muhammad SAW, even better and complete advent then the first advent of him SAW.
As stated above we are only entertaining the concept of Sadiq or Tzadik in this article, we will leave comparison of Mirza’s other attributes with Prophet Muhammad SAW for a future article and analysis.
Prophet Muhammad SAW before his pronouncement of Prophethood was known as Sadiq and Ameen by his peers.
Mirza wrote in his book AzalaeOham P165;
It is a seldom occurrence that religious opponents praise their enemies. But I have heard some amazing facts from Sikhs whose forefathers fought battles against him (Grandfather of Mirza). People described to me that some time Mirza Sahab would alone engage in a battle against thousands of man and win. No one could dare come close to him, despite valiant efforts by the enemies. They tried to kill him with bullets mortars and cannon rounds but no bullet or mortar would have any affect on him. This miracle of his was described by many of his friends and foes, even by the Sikhs, who have described it from certified accounts by their fathers and Grandfathers. But for me it is nothing extraordinary some people spent a long period in wars but never received any wounds due to miracle from God. So if this miracle is described properly that God kept him safe from enemy’s fire then there is no harm in proclaiming it (miracle).
We strongly are of the opinion that after such a bizarre example there is no further need to elaborate it, or give any other example to prove that Mirza was not a righteous or truthful person. His above quoted paragraph is ample proof if any needed that this man was a bald face liar.
We challenge Quadianis to provide single evidence from any historical book or from any genuine Sikh’s literature one example to prove what Mirza wrote was right.
Mirza’s claim of Promised Messiah of Judaism and Christianity
In this Article we are examining Mirza’s claims predominately in Jewish traditions. Christian’s claims of Messiah for Isa AS are based on Jewish tradition; therefore it is proper to pair these together. Mirza’s claims for Mehdi and Mujadid are not based on Quran but only on Hadiths, therefore, validity of his claims are already weaken due to his inability to provide any direct evidence from Quran to backup his claims.
Examination of Hadiths in regard to Mehdi is a separate issue which needs detailed analysis.
The word Messiah is derived from Jewish concept of Moshiach or the anointed one, his characteristics are;
1-He will be a descendant of Great King David. Mirza obviously was not descendant of David neither he was a Jew; therefore, he does not fulfil first condition.
2-He will be a righteous individual and eminent scholar of Torah. Looking at the life history of Mirza it is obvious that instead of being righteous he was extremely cunning and manipulative, a bald face liar and an opportunist. He had scant knowledge of the scriptures; it is hard for any of his follower to convince scholars of his credentials in any of the disciplines. It is a damning testimony on his literary merits that no independent scholars has ever written anything note worthy about Mirza’s writings.
3-He will inspire everyone beginning with Jews. Mirza’s inspirations didn’t work on majority of Indian of his own vicinity let alone other races and religions. His follower will be hard press to provide any evidence of Mirza inspiring any Jew to his teachings. He and his Jamat may have been used by the Jews for their own ends but no one from Jewish fraternity has ever either acknowledged or recognised Mirza as their Messiah.
4- He will be a very charismatic person and a powerful leader, leading by example. Mirza was in fact complete opposite to being charismatic; he was extremely irritating, short tempered, foul mouth, abusive and irrational person. Only example he has left for his followers are white lies, abusive writings, threats and rhetoric, false claims and then even stranger and outrageous justifications for his claims, bordering on insanity.
Only thing he commanded was Chanda, He was not a ruler but a money grabbing opportunist who has established a money making legacy for his family. The trait his family follows more actively then anything else. It is the only aspect of his legacy they are more concerned with after all it pays to be rich.
5- He will demand and achieve greatness from all the humanity. Mirza never achieved any greatness, he has been cursed and ridiculed more than any other figure in recent history with the exception of some infamous dictators who caused mayhem in the world.
6- He will enable return of Jews to Holy Land. It seems this was not the agenda of Mirza either.
7-He will re-build the Holy Temple. Once again Mirza didn’t fulfil this task.
The Messianic Era is described as time of universal peace, no human suffering, and eradication of diseases, hunger and other problems facing humanity. The Jewish people will return to Holy Land and re-build the 3rd Holy Temple in Jerusalem.
Facts remain, during Mirza’s era mass enslavement of human carried out by white colonists. Very people Mirza praised and obeyed. Hunger and diseases were rampant and still are rampant after 100 years of his death. Throws of First World War were underway resulted in mass destruction and murder of humans in millions. Mirza therefore failed miserably in his claim to be Jewish or Christian Messiah. He did not resembled the Messiah remotely in his characteristic, deeds or outcome of his mission, if there was any, except for his desire to arm his progeny with necessity for a steady income. One aspect he successfully copied from Catholic Church according to his own admissions.
Mirza’s attempts to overcome problems for his claim of being Jewish Messiah
Mirza realised that it is neigh impossible for him to convince any sane person that he is the same Jewish Messiah prophesised in Jewish teachings. After all this was a bridge too far for Mirza to claim that he is the promised Messiah foretold in every major religion of the world or in other words Metriya. We at the moment are not primarily concerned with the issue of Promised Messiah in other religions of the World and validity and correctness of this notion or on the concept of Metriya and its origins. Our main purpose is to demonstrate that Mirza was not the Promised Messiah of Jewish religion. Mirza performed unimaginable stretch to prove that he is that Messiah foretold in Jewish writings. In doing so, Mirza undoubtedly became a laughing stock.
Mirza wrote on P47 of Kashti-Nooh;
like Maryam, Christ spirit was infused in me and metaphorically I was conceived. At last after several months, not more than ten months, through revelation that I have stated in the part four pages 556 of Braheen-e-Ahmadyyia, I was made Christ from Mary. In this way I am son of Mary.
This way Mirza “The Incredible” passed himself as Promised Messiah of Jewish religion. If absurdity had any bounds, Mirza should surely be sitting at the top. We find it a pointless exercise to shed any more light on Mirza’s claims of being first the Mary and then after being infused with the Spirit of Jesus, Mary giving birth to Jesus after 10 months of pregnancy, then Mirza transmigrated himself from Mother Mary to Baby Jesus. What happened to the real Mary then?
This off course all was metaphorical. One is tempted to ask, if it was metaphorical then what happened to the concept of the real Promised Messiah in Jewish traditions who would fulfil the criterion stated in the Jewish literature. Perhaps a follower of Mirza could answer, this all is metaphorical. Metaphorically speaking we all potentially could be Promised Messiah of Jewish religion.
Conclusions
Mirza’s claims failed on each and every count. Without shadow of a doubt he did not fulfil any of the characteristic of “Promised Messiah” of Jewish and Christian traditions.
Mirza didn’t fulfil criterion of being righteous according to Jewish tradition or Sadiq according to Islamic meanings of the word either. He also did not pass a simple and very narrow test of being “Sadiq” in comparison to the personality of Prophet Muhammad SAW. Proving that he was no Zil, Buruz or Second Advent of Prophet Muhammad SAW. He was not remotely like him SAW.
Mirza’s understanding of Quran and Islam was injure, he has nothing else but conjecture and lies in his mind. These traits of Mirza comes to the forth in his writings. Mirza failed miserably in his endeavour to prove from Quran that he was recipient of knowledge of unseen; a righteous or truthful person; his claim of prophethood as Zil, Buruz of Prophet Muhammad SAW or otherwise failed miserably.
In short Mirza failed to fulfil condition of Prophethood set by him.
There could be no better example of his abject failure then for him not to fulfil condition he himself set to prove that he was a Prophet of whatever kind.
references;
1- All Quotes are from Dr. Allama Iqbal’s article “ Qadianis and Orthodox Muslims”
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I simply want to say I am very new to blogs and certainly liked you’re web-site. Probably I’m going to bookmark your website . You absolutely come with great posts. Thank you for revealing your webpage.
CrankSkunk,
Our discussion on the thread you opened is not progressing as my posts are being approved. Whats going on?
Sorry the my last post should read as “my posts are NOT being approved.
Mr. Omlk
“One one hand you keep on challenging people to have a debate; and yet refuse to actually begin a dsicussion on a specific topic.”
You have been told time and again, if you want to debate door is open for you, come to the forum. Why are you so scared to face me?
I tell you why, you know you can not absolve Mirza.
“It is very easy to throw out a large number of false allegations and then hide behind them; refusing to come to a starting point as only issue can be dicussed at a time.”
Once again door is open for a debate for you or any Qadiani around the world to prove that the allegations are false. Foolishly pronouncing they are false is useless the evidence is there in black and white, in Mirza’s own words. Who are you trying to fool? You can never ever defend him, no matter what, you are just pussy footing around the problems.
“p.s. Its time to let go of your obsession with Zahid Aziz.”
Are you kidding me? I am not bothered about him, all I am interested is to bust your Anjuman and its deliberate lies that Mirza didn’t claim prophet hood.
No more messages would be displayed from you, you are wasting my time, gather some courage and come to the forum. I will see how you are going to absolve Mirza and prove that allegations against him are false. You are acting exactly like Zahid, in very cowardly manner. If you have any sense you should have realise by now that you are getting exposed. This is as foolish as it gets, come to the forum, if you have an ounce of courage. Mirza really was a sad loser, not one follower of his got the courage to own him. Says it all for your “true Islam”.
@CrankySkunk
One one hand you keep on challenging people to have a debate; and yet refuse to actually begin a dsicussion on a specific topic. You picked Surha Jin as starting point. I summarised your arguments on that topic to make sure I am understanding you correctly and asked you to correct me if I am wrong. Instead of answering my question you resorted to the usual name calling and grandiose self-praise.
It is very easy to throw out a large number of false allegations and then hide behind them; refusing to come to a starting point as only issue can be dicussed at a time. If you have the courage begin by letting me know if my understanding of your allegation on HMGA regarding Surah Jin is correct or..correct me if I am wrong. Then we can begin. Do not try to cloud the matter by bringing your other allegations as we can only dicuss one issue at a time. when we are done with Surah Jin we can talk about the other false allegations you have put up also. Now lets see if you have the courage to begin the discussion on Surah Jin…or will you as usual try to evade?
p.s. Its time to let go of your obsession with Zahid Aziz.
OMLK,
I have a track record which proves that I never duck anything. I have just posted a general response to most of what you and your cultists have written. None of you have raised any significant points to date.
I am posting your responses, a proof in itself that I am neither worried nor incapable to answer your twaddle. When something is worth answering I will respond. Your clever tactics to show that the verses are for Mamoor too is a hog wash in the first place. Secondly, it is not supported from the writings of Mirza. Read the other paragraphs produced in the article, with open eyes and mind. Thirdly, you are opening a mine field for yourself, a Pandora box you can not close once it is opened. I dare you to try this approach with me on the forum.
Like I said before, read the writings of Mirza the comments you are writing about me, befits him very well indeed.
Ask people like Zahid, they are best suited to play their own trumpet. Better still, read the books of Mirza. I am on the other hand just an ordinary Muslim and proud to be one.
In your remarks, there is nothing specific to answer. It is not my fault or problem if you keep going round in a circle. My articles are very precise, read them properly. The tasks facing you and your cultists are summarized in my recent comment. If you find courage, you are more than welcome on the forum. This is more than what your cult can offer us Muslims.
Your cultists are scared to be exposed they don’t allow free thoughts and expression of those thoughts. Says it all about your “true Islam”. You are laughable people. Next time instead of checking if I have posted something on the thread, be little brave and write how you plan to defend Mirza. Something you keep avoiding or probably you don’t have any clues like your entire cult. Not one single knowledgeable and brave soldier in the cupboard of Mirza Kazzab? Not even one taker of the challenge on the issue of death or ascension of Isa As? Mirza based all his lies on this claim but strangely not one of his followers has the courage to defend their master. What a joke.
Qadiani especially Lahoris on this thread trying their best to some how clear Mirza from the charge he did claim Prophet Hood. Despite their best efforts none of them have really addressed the issue of Mirza claiming he has been given knowledge of the Unseen like other Prophets according to the verses in Al-Jin.
One follower has re produced the quotes from my article, but failed to address the issue of Mirza stressing that knowledge of the unseen is disclosed to the Prophets according to the verses.
One of them asserted that here by word Prophets meant all the Mujaddids or Mamoors they are given the knowledge of the unseen, according to Mirza.
1- None of them have the courage to debate the issue of Mujaddids with me on the forum. This assertion to save Mirza can only put his followers’ even in deeper troubles, if they ever find courage to defend him in a debate.
2- How ironic that they keep forgetting Mirza specifically mentioned these verses to equate himself with the Prophets, to claim Prophet Hood.
3- Evidence already produced that he was wrong to assert that Prophets were given knowledge of the Unseen.
4- This stupid idea of Lahori that Mirza was the Mujaddid and reviver of Islam is already exposed even by his false assertions on the verses from Surah Al-Jin. How they can claim he was a reviver if he can not understand the meanings of Holy Quran? His followers do not understand my articles are two edge swords, whichever way they turn my articles will cut through their arguments.
5- Mirza’s heresies are not limited to the issues dealt in this article. He lied constantly. I have systematically destroyed his arguments and each and every basis of his followers’ concoctions. The only thing left is for me to write on the issue of death or ascension of Isa As. Articles on these issues are in the pipeline.
My subsequent articles have exposed Mirza on the following points. Lahoris who in their feeble minds thinking by producing non-sense they are scoring some points, they should be well aware the issues they have to deal with are as follows;
A- Mirza’s credibility as “Sadiq”. One follower tries to imply that Mirza was quoting Sikhs when he wrote grand lies for the bravery of his father. All we have are the incredible lies of Mirza without him quoting any Sikh Source. I have given this challenge to all the Qadianis to produce authenticated proofs from the Sikh’s resources to back up incredible lies of Mirza, but none is forth coming.
B- I have consistently produced evidence of how Mirza learned languages from his followers and from the books supplied by his followers. This grand liar then produced alleged ilhams in these languages, ilhams which are full of errors. I did not adopt the practice to point to grammatical errors in his so called ilhams. Instead I showed how he learns the languages.
C- To catch his lies, I produced the evidence in my article that according to Mirza’s own admission, he did change the words of the alleged revelations but his Jugular veins were not cut by Allah SWT. I) His claims were false that the test applied to him. II) Admission in his own words that Allah SWT does not cut Jugular veins of every body but only the Prophets and his concoctions about the Mamoors. III) Despite proofs he failed the test he devised and also evidence of consistent lies, he never been harmed by Allah SWT, proving according to his own admission and according to test devised by him that he was neither a Prophet nor he could be a Mamoor according to the Lahoris. He failed his own test. He sits comfortably with numerous false claimants of Prophet Hood; who lived long lives. Word of advice, read my article properly, no chance of his followers to twist it to “Mamoors”; this point is also covered in my article.
D- Mirza also claimed that he was taught Arabic Roots words by Allah SWT. A grand lie once again from the Grand liar of Qadian. I have systematically destroyed this claim of Mirza too in my articles, in very subtle ways by exposing how he learned the languages.
E- His numerous lies against Holy Quran, the Word of Allah SWT are exposed in my articles. For example Mirza wrote incredible lie that Prophet Muhammad SAW was allowed to call his followers as “Abadi” in the Holy Quran (nauzobillah). Mirza was trying to cover his shirk and to justify him being called “the Son” of God in his alleged revelations. I didn’t have to worry going great length to prove his shirk, by exposing his blatant lies I have exposed his shirk in subtle way with the proof that he attributed the lies to the Holy Quran to save himself.
F- Mirza’s lies against Prophet Isa As of the Holy Quran are exposed showing repeatedly to show what length this grand liar of Qadian has gone in his efforts to belittle a Mighty Prophet of Allah SWT. The Problem his followers face is that by him not believing in a single Prophet of Allah SWT mentioned by name in the Holy Quran. Mirza without shadow of a doubt became a Kaffir and non-believer. Therefore, without going in to the semantics I have proven that Mirza was a Kaffir and not a Muslim at all. The onus is on his followers to prove that Mirza didn’t write these lies against Prophet Isa As of the Holy Quran to prove first and foremost that Mirza was a Muslim.
G- Mirza at various places has written that even Prophet SAW did not understand the verses of the Holy Quran. I have provided proofs after proofs of lies of Mirza against the Holy Quran. Once again I have subtly not only proven him a liar, but proven that he did not understand the Holy Quran and also that he deliberately lied against the Holy Quran.
H- How this liar who lied against the Holy Quran, who lied about the evidence in the Holy Quran for a Mighty Prophet of Allah SWT can reform Islam according to the Lahoris? This is the question Lahoris have to answer.
In a nutshell the tasks facing his followers specially the Lahoris who are busy on this particular article are
1- Prove Mirza didn’t claim Prophet Hood by quoting verses from Surah Al-Jin.
2- Prove that he can be a Muslim after writing lies against Prophet Isa As of the Holy Quran. Believing on all the Prophets of Allah SWT is one of the main tenants of Islam.
3- Prove that how he can reform Islam if he himself lied consistently against the Holy Quran?
4- How a liar can be selected by All Knowing Allah SWT to reform Islam? Or for any other task at all?
5- Prove that Mirza passed the test he himself said applied to him according to the Verses in the Holy Quran? He is proven a liar in his own words. His thinking was displayed in his own words to show that he knew very well indeed he or any other Kazzab is not the addressee of the verse in the Holy Quran “cutting the Jugular veins”. In fact no one was addressee of these verses except Prophet SAW.
6- Prove his lies that he was taught Arabic by Allah SWT, when we have the evidence of how he learned languages, how he plagiaries work of others. His alleged ilhams have mistakes which were corrected by his own followers.
In a nutshell, Mirza is well and truly busted from each and every angle this is my challenge to any Qadiani to debate with me any major topic from the writings of Mirza including his claims on the death of Isa As from the Holy Quran.
I have given this challenge to two of the stalwarts of Qadianis from both sects.
Zahid Aziz from Lahoris and Ansar Raza from Rabwah Qadianis; both of them have ducked the opportunity to debate the very issue Mirza and subsequently his followers claim was reveled to Mirza.
How it is that even the so called scholars of this cult are incapable to debate with an ordinary Muslim the very issue which is heart of their beliefs system according to the writings of Mirza?
@CrankSkunk
As usual I will ignore the self praise, the inflammatory language and the incomprehensible stuff.
You keep on calling other cowards but yourself appear to be scared to answer questions on this forum. I have posed a number of very releant questions specifc to this article to have an honest discussion with you. But you have not answered a single one and in response have resorted to name calling. Even on the other fourm no questions have been answered by you. So on one hand you make accusations and throw challenges, and when asked questions you start to evade. Ok so if you are scared to answer any questions here then atleast post the answers on the other forum, and have the courage to to maintian an easily visible link to that forum from this page. I will keep checking the other forum for a few days to see if you have the courage to answer the questions. After that I will stop as I too am a busy person.
OMLK,
I am a busy person; I don’t have to worry about title tattle. Nor I have to worry about people who do not have courage to come to the forum when invited to have the debate on any major topic from the writings of Mirza.
You have neither clarified anything nor you have tried to defend Mirza; gather some courage, I am ready and willing whenever or whoever has the courage amongst you. You guys are extremely cowardly people. I have known it for years now.
Last time, come to the forum, state there you are ready to have a debate with me, and we will find out if I can answer your questions or not, or if you can defend the lies of Mirza or not. I suggest your read my articles with open eyes and think, before committing hare karri.
@CrankSkunk
You have not posted any reply to my posts on the other forum. And u have not answered my earlier question that I have aked twice… why you are scared to answer questions regarding your article over here (where it makes more sense) and instead keen to do so at the other forum, out of the view of past and future readers of your articles. I can only guess you do not want the regular or future readers to find out that your arguments have been shown to be wrong?
As usual I have ignored all the self praise and the inflammatory language by you.
OMLK,
All of you were told repeatedly, if you want to discuss these issues come to the forum and debate whatever you wish. This is my open challenge to all Qadianis belonging to either the Lahori or Rabwah faction, I will debate with any one of you; any major topic from the writings of Mirza Kazzab.
If you are true supporters of Mirza, why are you so scared to face the Music? At least, I am posting your messages; your cult does not have this courage either. You block messages from Muslims on both Rabwah and Lahoris websites and forums. So much so for yours “true Islam”. Mirza was a liar, face it, a liar can not be selected to reform Islam, by All Knowing Allah SWT. Mirza needed to be reformed as a person due to his persistent lies and concoctions. My articles are full of his lies against the Holy Quran, him attributing lies to Allah SWT, following Jewish traditions and beliefs.
Your attempts are hilarious to say the least, you are struggling to prove one point, how could you possibly clear Mirza from all his lies? I can keep producing absurdities after absurdities, lies of after lies from the writings of Mirza.
Admit it; it is a losing battle you are trying to fight. Path to a debate is always open for any of you. I have courage; let’s see if any one of you can display a shred of it? From now on no more comments would be allowed on this article, if you want to see your comments they would be displayed on the forum. Any of you need answer come to the thread I have already given.
@CrankSkunk
U have not resplied to my last post. I guess I should assume my assesment of your allegations against HMGA are accurate?
You have leveled an allegation against HMGA that he has not understood the meaning of some verses of Surah Jin; and to support your allegation you have quoted other verses from the Quran which according to you negate the meaning of the Surah Jin verses as mentioned by HMGA. I have taken a close look at your arguments and have found that all you have done is very clever word play to confuse the issue and (using the favorite method of the enemies of Islam) have ascribed meanings to both HMGA’s word and Quranic verse which have no relevance to the context but only serve to support your own false arguments.
First of all allow me to summarize your argument here. I apologize for this and if I make a mistake please do correct me. It’s just that your writing style is so confusing that I needed to summarize the crux of what you are saying (minus the self praise and abusive language) so that a meaningful discussion can take place. Your words are quoted by enclosing in [].
1. According to you as per the Quranic verses you quoted, only Allah has knowledge of the unseen and does not reveal it to anyone.
2. As HMGA claims that Allah revealed to him knowledge of the unseen and quoted verse 26/27 of Surah Jin in support he [ “displayed his lack of knowledge of Quran and his scant regard for the Word of Allah by quoting above verses from Surah Jin. Verses 72:26/27 do not imply that Allah disclose (sic) to the Prophets knowledge of the unseen. On the contrary these Verses categorically state that no one has the knowledge of the Unseen except Allah SWT.”]
3. Then you quoted a number of Quranic verses to support your argument that only Allah has knowledge of the Unseen and it is not disclosed to anyone. Your basic conclusion was that any one claiming to have been revealed such knowledge is therefore in violation of the quoted verses. And because HMGA made such a claim he did not understand the Quranic verses (specifically Surah Jin 26/27).
Please do let me know if I have made any mistake in understanding you. But try to stick to the issue here i.e. the meaning of Surah Jin and the other verses prove that HMGA has “scant regard” for the Quran and his “lack of knowledge” of the Quran. I am not interested in knowing how smart you are and how evil and cultist the Ahmadis are. So let’s keep it to the issue and not cloud the matter. If I have understood you correctly then I can proceed, otherwise correct me right here so no time is wasted.
have not responded to the following:
Ideally any “debate” that is specific to the article should also be here so all readers can know the truth. Not sure why you are reluctant to answer questions regarding your article over here and instead keen to do so at the other forum, out of the view of past and future readers of your articles.
I should also mention that I personally do not desire to debate the writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, but simply want to test the veracity of this particular article by cross checking the references by reading them in context to see if your arguments make sense or not. In case they do not make sense then certainly I will ask you to clarify. Alos Jay is correct in asking for the source of your referance. Did you do the English translation urself, copied from another website etc. This is important because I want to use the same source as you so there is no confusion.
Jay,
Your posts are full of meaningless twaddle. Fact of the matter is I only use this blog to post my articles, for debates and discussion I used forums. I have provided link to the forum page, where a thread is opened just to deal with the Lahoir Qadianis posts.
Why don’t you find enough courage to visit that page and leave your messages there? Why are you keep posting long messages here, when I have given the short cut to deal with whatever you want to throw?
Your childish non-sense is not going to cut any mustard with me; I can deal with any of you with ease and swiftness.
Just to avoid the usual allegations of quoting out of context by the Qadianis, after this first article I have adopted the practice to insert the image from the books of Mirza so every one who can read Urdu can read it and understand that it is not quoted out of context,
I have provided page numbers on this thread because it didn’t have the images from the writings of Mirza. But I would not do it for my other articles; they have the images, so everyone can read what Mirza has written. No excuse of quoting out of context.
Your allegations of plagiarism are hilarious, steaming from your frustration that you are unable to defend garbage of Mirza.
Now to all the Lahori Qadiani, I know you are desperate to some how repair the damage to the reputation of Mirza. To do that you have to come to the forum’s thread. From now on I would not display any messages here, they will be copied on the thread and I will give you a full reply.
My challenge is open to each and every Qadiani; you can not defend Mirza on any of the major topics in his books. You are all invited to have the discussion on the forum if you ever so wish.
At least; I am posting your remarks here and on the forum and from now on; only on the forum. You and your cultists don’t even have this much courtesy. You should teach this openness to your web master Zahid Aziz. If anyone of you have the courage (which I doubt) then please lend a little bit of it to Zahid. The poor fellow needs it really badly.
@Skunk
Ur obsession with Zahid Aziz is quite amusing; as you keep bringing up his name without reason again and again. Only he his responsible for himself, so your taking little swipes at him behind his back while replying to other persons is rather funny.
@ Skunk (sorry, but I believe we are on first name basis)
You still have not provided full reference to your quotes about Mirza. It leaves no choice but to assume that your vigilantism is based on quoting others under your own name. Isn’t that plagiarism? All it needs is a web link, publisher etc., else the respondents might be discussing different sources without agreeing.
Clearly you are confused. If you get responded, incidentally by a few posts, you feel swarmed and take it as a conspiracy against you. Isn’t that a sign of paranoia? Do you want critical discussion about your posting or are you just looking for praise? How lonely you are?
Why do you feel so insecure and outwitted by “smarty pants” for a contemporary abstraction of God’s Message? Why is your understanding of Quran locked away in medieval mythologies?
>> Next time I expect a defense of Mirza, real purposes of my article are
Mirza is no more. Let his books be his defense. But remember, you have to read more that a few paragraphs of a writer to understand the full implications of his writing. At times an author covers his ideas across his books. To my understanding, Mirza authored many books. One gets from a book what one wants. Non-muslims, dig for dirt, and that’s what they find in Quran and post it on the internet. How are you different?
>> 1- Mirza definitely claimed Prophet Hood; he mentioned the knowledge of the unseen to claim he is Prophet and a Messenger.
You keep on ranting the accusation of Mirza’s claim of a Messenger. What kind of a Prophet or Messenger is he that there is no Kalima of his. In my earlier post, I alluded to Einstein and others as Messengers for type of knowledge they had and the parallels that are found in the verses you quoted. Do you really believe that I meant them to be an actual Prophets like Muhammad? It is just like asking the crusader “Richard the Lion Heart” for an actual heart of a lion or “Maulvi Fazal-e-Haq Sher-e-Bengal” for his actual tail or Mirza for his Kalima.
Abstraction of a metaphor is one of the executive functions of human mind. Lack thereof is a sign of low IQ.
>> 2-He achieved this through “Sirah Sadique”; I provided his outrageous description of bravery of his grand father as an example of his lies. I busted his lies in my subsequent article. Proving he was a liar, not a Sadiq.
Now, please re-read what you quoted
“…But I have heard some amazing facts from Sikhs whose forefathers fought battles against him (Grandfather of Mirza)…” Now who is saying that? Is it Mirza or Sikhs narrating a tale?
“…But for me it is nothing extraordinary some people spent a long period in wars but never received any wounds due to miracle from God. So if this miracle is described properly that God kept him safe from enemy’s fire then there is no harm in proclaiming it (miracle)…” What’s so strange about this comment? Can’t you say that about Khalid Bin Walid, who battled successfully through out his life? If every soldier in every army is injured, there would be no army left in the world history? Have you ever heard the metaphorical narrations of a Sikh in real life conversation? If not then I feel sorry for your conclusion, because you lack certain literary fundamentals.
>> 3-His bogus claims to be a Messiah according to the Jewish and Christian’s traditions.
With a defender like you of Christians and Jewish traditions, who needs Dajjals. Your arguments parallels, “enemy of my enemy is my friend.” Think for a moment, what strange bedfellows you have?
In conclusion, all I can say is that you might be able to type a few paragraphs, or cut and paste materials; you significantly lack abstract interpretation of metaphor, which is a requirement to understand Quran and any literature of significance.
Jay,
It is no coincidence that Lahori Qadianis swarmed my blog as soon as I sent an e-mail to your Amir. You really think I should believe that you are not a Lahori Qadiani?
Thank you for your comments on my writing style. I suggest you should read the books of Mirza with open eyes, you will find your assessment befitting him.
Your useless verbiage shows you have nothing meaningful to say; in other words you have absolutely no clue how to defend Mirza.
The source for Mirza’s quotes was “correction of an Error” which was indicated in the article. Now I have provided page number with the quotes, but all the quotes were from the first few pages. Usual accusations of Qadianis out of context quotations. Actually my article covers almost everything meaningful written in the first few pages by Mirza. The name of the article of Iqbal is also provided at the bottom of the page now. Enough of your excuses, you should start defending Mirza.
Fog is what Mirza created and your cult throw sand in people’s eyes, I am trying to clear that fog by exposing Mirza and your hypocrisy.
Your last comments on scientists and knowledge of the unseen in the Holy Quran, shows lack of your understanding of the Holy Quran. It is not worth commenting on such comments but not to be accused of unable to answer; I will give a brief answer to your allegations.
سَنُرِيهِمْ آيَاتِنَا فِي الْآفَاقِ وَفِي أَنفُسِهِمْ حَتَّى يَتَبَيَّنَ لَهُمْ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ أَوَلَمْ يَكْفِ بِرَبِّكَ أَنَّهُ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ (41:53)
41:53In time We shall make them fully understand Our messages [through what they perceive] in the utmost horizons [of the universe] and within them¬selves, so that it will become clear unto them that this [revelation] is indeed the truth. [Still,] is it not enough [for them to know] that thy Sustainer is witness unto everything?
Therefore, Mr. Einstein, All knowing Allah SWT, already taken care of the arguments which could be presented by smarty pants like you.
Allah SWT decreed that in time He will make human realise the full wonders of the Universe, through progressive deepening and widening of their knowledge and the insight. As well as man’s own psyche, all this points to the existence of a Conscious Creator, the All Powerful and with Unfathomable knowledge of the Unseen. Some people suggest that the mention of “within them” means the genetic breakthrough which happened in very near past.
Next time I expect a defense of Mirza, real purposes of my article are
1- Mirza definitely claimed Prophet Hood; he mentioned the knowledge of the unseen to claim he is Prophet and a Messenger.
2-He achieved this through “Sirah Sadique”; I provided his outrageous description of bravery of his grand father as an example of his lies. I busted his lies in my subsequent article. Proving he was a liar, not a Sadiq.
3-His bogus claims to be a Messiah according to the Jewish and Christian’s traditions.
I suggest you should defend him.
Manocher,
Your post is full of your cult’s propaganda. Word twisting is not the answer, nor it is something I am asking. Lame excuses to include others as addressees of the verses; which categorically mentioned Prophets is the heresy well suited to the Qadianis. We Muslim cannot imagine such heresy.
1- Secondly, you are asking us to believe a person, who did not even understand the meanings of the verse in the first place, read the other verses quoted from the same Surah and the verses which deny that any Prophet had the knowledge of the Unseen, including Prophet SAW.
2- Mirza used the excuse by opening an imaginary window for his claim of Prophet hood. He didn’t qualify and did not pass standard set out by him. Read the other articles for the truth on the bravery of his grand father in the words of Mirza himself.
3- For you to state Mirza meant to include Muhaddiths in this verse could put you in deeper trouble then you expect. If you do want to include it then be my guest come to the short cut provided in my remarks and I will deal with you promptly.
I have opened a thread on a forum to answer the questions of Lahori Qadianis.
http://www.thecult.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=469
My site is for articles and comments on my articcles, not for long posts and debate. I am more than happy to answer and debate with any one of you on the above thread.
Your cult does not have the courage to post opposing view. Your Zahid Aziz routinely block my messages on your anjumn blog. He does not have the courage to accept my challenges either.
This is my open challenge to any Lahori Qadiani or any Rabwah Qadiani to debate with me the writings of Mirza on above forum.
My earlier comment was asking for references; so every one reading your articles can benefit. In fact some earlier posts also asked for the same. At least the references should be posted right here.
Ideally any “debate” that is specific to the article should also be here so all readers can know the truth. Not sure why you are reluctant to answer questions regarding your article over here and instead keen to do so at the other forum, out of the view of past and future readers of your articles.
I should also mention that I personally do not desire to debate the writings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, but simply want to test the veracity of this particular article by cross checking the references (if you provide them) by reading them in context to see if your arguments make sense or not. In case they do not make sense then certainly I will ask you to clarify.
@Cranktahtskunk
You have not given any references. Why don’t you do that first for both Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s and Muhammad Iqbal’s quotations and then let people read the quotes in context and agree or disagree with you. Its very easy to quote things out of context and put your own spin on it to show a meaning differant from what the author intended.
Firstly, a feed back on your writing style. You create too much noise of verbiage that it becomes difficult to understand your question. Your “pressured” speech either reflects a hypo-manic state or a narcissistic personality that dwells on its own grandiosity. The rigidity of repetition indicates a “self-deluded” person. The lack of patience indicates an “immature” mind. Your assumption of me belonging to aaiil and knowing your identity only exposes a bigoted mindset. Sorry, but, that’s how you come across.
The questions that I raised earlier were only a futile attempt by me to clear the fog and sift through your rhetoric, as all of those questions were relevant to issues you touch upon. Please re-read your article and then the questions I posted. Anyhow, issue is not my questions but the question that you are trying to ask i.e. Mirza’s use of verses from Surah Jinn.
Before any comment can be made on your question, it is prudent for you first to give the source of your quotation, which could be as simple as a web link, publisher, chapter, page etc. This way everyone is on the same page for a discussion. Interestingly, you do not even give the source of Quranic translations that you quote. To quote your quoted translation:
72:26 He [alone] knows that which is beyond the reach of a created being’s perception and to none does He disclose aught of the mysteries of His Own unfathomable knowledge,
72:27 unless it be to an apostle whom He has been pleased to elect [there for]: and then He sends forth [the forces of heaven] to watch over him in whatever lies open before him and in what is beyond his ken.
Please re-read the verses in contemporary sense. Don’t you see these verses fitting Einsteins, Hawkins and Abdus Salams of today? Aren’t they given the knowledge (of the theoretical physics), which is yet “beyond the reach of a created being’s perception?” Isn’t scientific knowledge part of His “unfathomable knowledge?” Then, do we have to have Messengers only in shape of classical “Prophets?” Isn’t it a job description of a “Messenger” to bring knowledge of God to Man? By Quranic injunction Muhammad is the seal and last of the prophets and no prophet can come after him and to claim revelation via Gabriel. End of story.
I will wait for your references to your article. Ethically, you cannot publish a blog under a pseudonym for the simple reason that a blog is a live discussion and not a one time published book. Do you like to be called a “skunk?” Probably not. Please stay focused on ideas and abstain name trashing that you did for Mirza.
Al- Jinn 72: 26/27
Lahori Ahmadi website has given translation of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s book ‘Ayk Ghalati Ka Izala’ (Correction of an error). In reference to Al- Jinn 72: 26/27, explanatory notes 14, and 15 says:
Note 14
Regarding exactly this verse, Hazrat Mirza has written that the word rasul is used in it in a broad sense and includes saints as well as the prophets. He writes:
1. “God says: ‘He does not make His unseen known to anyone except a rasul whom He chooses’. The word rasul is general, and included within it are rasul, nabi and muhaddas.” (A’inah Kamalat Islam, February 1893, p. 332)
2. “The Holy Quran says: ‘He [God] does not make His unseen known to anyone except a rasul whom He chooses’, i.e. to disclose unseen matters perfectly is only the work of those who are rasul; others are not given this status. By rasul are meant those persons who are sent from Almighty God, whether it is a nabi, or a rasul, or a muhaddas and mujaddid.” (Ayyam as-Sulh, August 1898, p. 171)
3. “God says: ‘He does not make His unseen known to anyone except a rasul whom He chooses’. That is to say, Almighty God does not inform anyone of His secrets in an open manner except those who are rasul, i.e. those persons who are appointed with wahy risalat or wahy wilayat, and are considered as being from God.” (Al-Haq Mubahasa Ludhiana, October 1891, p. 117)
So if someone is described as being a rasul under this verse, then that person is not necessarily a prophet, but can be a saint (muhaddas or wali).
{Return to this point in the Translation.}
Note 15
Again, it is clear that Hazrat Mirza is speaking of the linguistic or literal use of the words nabi and rasul, the sense in which they apply to saints.
It is also worth reading to read note 13 to better understand what Mirza Ghulam Ahmad meant about Al- Jinn 72: 26/27:
Note 13
In his writings Hazrat Mirza has clearly distinguished between the religious meaning of the word nabi and its linguistic meaning as given in lexicons (and similarly for the word rasul). A man to whom the word nabi only applies in its linguistic sense is not a prophet in Islamic terminology. Hazrat Mirza writes as follows on the question of whether his followers should believe him to be a nabi and rasul:
1. “Risalat in the Arabic language is applied to ‘being sent’, and nubuwwat is to expound hidden truths and matters upon receiving knowledge from God. So, bearing in mind a significance of this extent, it is not blame-worthy to believe in the heart in accordance with this meaning. However, in the terminology of Islam, nabi and rasul mean those who bring an entirely new shariah, or those who abrogate some aspects of the previous shariah, or those who are not called followers of a previous prophet, having a direct connection with God without benefit from a prophet. Therefore, one should be vigilant to see that the same meaning is not taken here.” (Al-Hakam, 17 August 1899, page 6)
2. “It is obvious that he who is sent by God is His envoy, and an envoy is called rasul in Arabic. And he who discloses news of the unseen received from God is called nabi in Arabic. The meanings in Islamic terminology are different. At this place, only the linguistic meaning is intended.” (Arba‘in, No. 2, September 1900, footnote, p. 18)
He also writes:
1. “A sign of the coming Promised Messiah, which is written, is that he shall be a prophet (nabi) of God, meaning one who receives revelation from God. However, full and complete prophethood is not meant here because that has been sealed. Rather, that prophethood is meant which is limited to the significance of muhaddasiyya, which obtains light from the lamp of the prophethood of Muhammad.” (Izala Auham, September 1891, p. 701)
2. “Be it known to all the Muslims that all such words as occur in my writings Fath Islam, Tauzih Maram and Izala Auham, to the effect that the muhaddas is in one sense a prophet, or that being a muhaddas is partial prophethood or imperfect prophethood, are not to be taken in their real sense, but have been used according to their root meaning in a straight-forward way; otherwise, I lay no claim whatever to actual prophethood. On the other hand, as I have written in my book Izala Auham, page 137, my belief is that our leader and master Muhammad mustafa — may peace and the blessings of God be upon him — is the last of the Prophets.
“So I wish to make it clear to all Muslim brothers that, if they are displeased with these words and if these words give injury to their feelings, they may regard all such words as amended, and instead consider me to have used the word muhaddas. For I do not like to create dissension and discord among the Muslims.
“From the beginning, as God knows best, my intention has never been to use this word nabi as meaning actually a prophet, but only as signifying muhaddas, which the Holy Prophet has explained as meaning one who is spoken to by God. Of the muhaddas it is stated in a saying of the Holy Prophet: ‘Among the Israelites who were before you, there used to be men who were spoken to by God, though they were not prophets, and if there is one among my followers, it is Umar.’
“Therefore, I have not the least hesitation in stating my meaning in another form for the conciliation of my Muslim brethren, and that other form is that in every place instead of the word nabi the word muhaddas should be understood, and the word nabi should be regarded as having been deleted.” (Majmu‘a Ishtiharat, vol. i, p. 313, announcement dated 3 February 1892, issued in Lahore.)
It is clear from these references that whenever the word nabi is used about someone purely in its linguistic sense of ‘one who receives revelation from God’ then that person is a saint or muhaddas.
3. In a letter dated 23 May 1908, written to a Muslim newspaper of Lahore, which was published in that newspaper three days later, on the very day of his death, Hazrat Mirza wrote:
“The only reason that I am known as nabi is that in the Arabic and Hebrew languages the word nabi means one who makes prophecies abundantly upon receiving revelation from God.”
You can read the complet translation with explanatory notes, here
http://www.ahmadiyya.org/noclaim/gh-trans.htm
As I suspected a long answer discussing every irrelevant issue but failing to answer the questions asked.
Let me remind you once again, my first question for you is to explain Mirza’s use of verses from Surah Al-Jin, simple.
Do you find any ambiguity in this question?
You have spent over 100 years to research this topic that Mirza didn’t claim Prophet Hood, You have written books, articles, on this topic.
I am only asking you a very simple question based on the writings of Mirza, why are you so reluctant to answer a very simple question?
I can easily respond to your irrelevant and diversionary response, but I would rather not waste my valuable time. Please answer the questions asked rather then changing the topic to irrelevant issues.
10- Prophet Muhammad SAW was a Prophet wasn’t he SAW? Do you agree then with the meaning of the word Prophet or Nabi in Arabic?
11- A- Prophet SAW did not make claim of being Messiah of Judaism. Mirza did, therefore he should be judged on his own words and on the basis of the evidence from the Bible and the Torah. Also on the basis of other Jewish literature to judge his claims of being a Messiah.
B- There is no concept of Messiah in Islam; do not mix Messih in the Holy Quran with Messiah of the Holy Bible. I find it rather distasteful coming from people and their followers who have made it their business to claim rather ridiculous titles for themselves.
12- A- I warned you two wrongs do not make a right. Anyone else saying the same thing does not make Mirza right. I also told you I am a follower of Prophet Muhammad SAW and the Holy Quran, the Word of Allah SWT.
B- If Sirhindi or anyone else for that matter existed or not, wouldn’t have made an iota of difference to the religion of Islam, which according to the Holy Quran was perfected and completed in the life time of Prophet Muhammad SAW.
C- You should also read the quotation you provided with open eyes. This quotation wouldn’t escape you from the question based on Mirza’s mention of the verses of the Holy Quran. There is huge difference between the two. I warn you once again, don’t show your dishonesty and waste my time.
1/2/3 A- Answer about my identity was given to Zahid a while ago. He had the chance to know my ID if he had the courage to accept my “Butler challenge” but he bottled it.
B- Many writers use Alias for writings, this is my selected Alias for writing my articles. Who are you to object?
Stop this charade and answer my questions regarding the verses from Surah Al-Jin.
I have also asked you questions in regard to;
1- Mirza’s attack on Prophet ISA As of the Holy Quran. Nor surprisingly, you didn’t answer those questions. Prove first and foremost Mirza was a Muslim according to the teachings of the Holy Quran.
2- You have also conveniently ignored questions on the lies of Mirza against the Holy Quran in my articles. Deal with them.
3- Avoidance is not an option for you. Remember you claim you are “true Muslims” and your’s is the “true Islam” based on the writings and teachings of Mirza. Logically you have to prove Mirza was Muslim first and foremost from the Holy Quran.
Once you answer these questions first then I will go through with you any topic you wish from the writings of Mirza including Mehdi and return of ISA As or His AS death according to some.
Why are you so reluctant to answer the relevant questions asked after evidence presented in my articles?
By the way; you are best advertisement for your self proclaimed title of “True Muslims” and you’re “ true Islam”. You never wrote any salutations for Prophet Muhammad SAW (Peace and blessing of Allah SWT be upon him).
This is as bad it gets from the members of AAIIL. I wrote directly to the Amir in the UK and in response got this comment on my blog. When AAIIL, its so called Scholars and Amirs going to respond to my questions in dignified manner and clear Mirza?
This site raises more questions than it answers:
1. Who owns this site?
2. Any literature of significance has to have an author, else it could be construed as mischief. Who is the author of this article above?
3. If the purpose of this site is to rebut any different ideas about Islam, then what is the standard definition of a Muslim?
4. Iqbal is no doubt a great thinker of his time. Didn’t he fail to acknowledge the very origin of his core symbol of “Shaheen” as plagiarism of Khushal Khan Kattak?
5. There is flavor of “academic research” and blow by blow point scoring in the above article. In anti-Islam literature on the web, Quran is quoted to prove that Islam is a false and violent religion. They do this by out of context quotations. Wouldn’t it be fair to give references so that readers may be able to validate the opinions above for themselves and reject any out of context quotations?
6. Mehdi and Isa are repeatedly mentioned above. What is the standard Muslim view about Mehdi and return of Isa?
7. Mirza is criticized for being appreciative of British governance. Is it not surprising to repeatedly hear the Muslims councils and Imams composed of immigrants in England, Europe and America doing this on almost daily basis?
8. Mirza is history. The obvious target of this article is present day Qadianis. Can one blame Muhammad for acts of present day Jihadists?
9. Can someone name a single person of any significance (including greats like Abu-Bakr Siddiq, Omar, Usman etc.) in Muslim history who has not been a target of ridicule and curses?
10. The very meaning of Prophet is to prophesize and he foretells the unseen. Of the numerous prophecies, did not Muhammad prophesize conquest of Persia?
11. The argument is made above that that Mirza did not fit the definition of Messiah of Jews and Christians. If Bible and Torah are to be taken as reference point, then can’t Muhammad be rejected too?
12. Shaikh Ahmad of Sirhind of India a.k.a. Mujaddid Alif Sani (d. 1624 C.E.) writes:“Though the office of prophethood has been ended, still the perfect followers of the prophets can share some attainments and characteristics of prophethood through inheritance and obedience.” (Maktubat, Daftar II., letter no. 6, p. 25). Does it not need intelligence to contextualize a metaphor?
[...] and Sisters read these articles, give their comments and spread this web log address to others. Repeat of an Error by Mirza Quadiani Please specially read the article, "Mirza a false prophet" and articles on the death of [...]
Hello
I am a born Ahmadi but found so many discrepancies and contradictions in Ahmadiyya beliefs. I read almost everything regarding Ahmadiyyat and consequently have become sceptic of my own believes. Whenever I read something regarding Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s (MGA) writings, I tried to check the references given in the articles to check the authenticity to further enhance my understanding.
Although you have produced wonderful works and most of the stuff you cited in your articles are very familiar to MGA’s writings but unfortunately no references are available in your articles. This makes very difficult for a reader to cross checks any reference and reduces the effectiveness of your brilliant work. I am sure it will not be very difficult for you to provide references in your articles as you already have those while investigating on the given subject.
I hope you will consider this in your next articles.
Good luck and keep up the good work.
Regards!
M Khan
Hello
please write in urdu language. I dont understand your english. please
thankx
Salaam brother, Shahid here.
Please join us at http://www.TheCult.info – a site about discussion of the Ahmadiyya. It is run by Muslims and primarily for Muslims. Its agenda will insha’Allah, always be Muslim and those people who attack Islam will not be tolerated at that forum.
Please join us brother.